@apio ludd As an "anti-market anarchist" is there anything you would do (as opposed to expressing an opinion etc.) about anyone who decided to trade in a market?
i don't speak for apio ludd, but i suspect they would agree with me on this.
if people want to conduct their lives through value-exchange transactions using markets - in the most basic sense of that word - that is their own business (pun not intended but appreciated). as long as their activity does not impact the lives of those who choose not to do so, i don't see any problems. whether they call themselves anarchist is irrelevant.
the issue i (and others) have is the fact that living by the logic of value exchange is pretty much guaranteed to impact the lives of others who do not choose that way of living. that is at least partly due to value exchange being inextricably tied to concepts like profit and accumulation, which pretty much by definition impact others in ways they do not choose.
also, markets do not necessarily imply value exchange. see "really really free markets".
" I suggest Agorist "
how exactly is agorism different from anarcho-capitalism (as it has been described on this site by self-identified ancaps)?
leaving "corporatism" aside for the moment, the concepts of profit and accumulation (including, significantly, primitive accumulation) are inherent to "free markets" as you have described them, and those are ideas that inevitably lead to exploitation and imposition on others (both human and non-human) who do not choose to participate.
dns: "although my initial reaction (to rrfm) is that attempting to remove currency deprives the world of an important tool..."
that line had me laughing pretty hard....
i've gone to several rrfms and had a great time....the experience felt very freeing, almost surreal a couple of times....to experience people giving and receiving without exchange, to see people take pleasure in taking stuff that i would have thrown away, to receive stuff that others no longer wanted that i now use, people making music together without regard for money or compensation....all of it, in all of its smallness and isolation from the rest of the monetary relationships, gave me joy....
but fuck, i might have deprived "the world" of "an important tool"....yeah, i guess if your project is to control the lives of others and to measure everything in numbers, to control the very survival of people by using it...
i guess when my neighbor gave me 20 pounds of tomatoes without charging me (or keeping a tabulation), he didn't realize how he deprived the world.....or when i made salsa from those tomatoes and gave some to other friends without monetary consideration, i really missed out by not using that important tool.....i think i rather like depriving "the world" while my life and the lives of those folks with whom i interact without money/exchange becomes more creative and fun and intimate.
"The best way to determine the rental value of your body (and mind) is, I suggest, the market. "
feeling even more nauseated.
I was responding to the initial objections (which surprised me) regarding the use of currency. It seemed I had to defend my use of currency, which, I agree, is ridiculous. Whether you choose to use it or not is up to you. When I'm faced with State violence through the use of this tool I personally won't reject the tool, but rather pick it up and attempt to use it, insofar as I can, against that State violence. I suggest not doing so is a mistake if you want to resist State violence, but, of course, you may disagree.
Your line about "controlling the lives of others, measuring everything in numbers, and needing money for survival" makes me laugh because you appear to be stating that's somehow my project and I pursue it by using ... currency!
I am suggesting that anarchy (as I understand it) would deliver a better end result, for myself personally and, by extension, "for the World". Anarchy is a political philosophy. Political in this sense. 'Society' by implication relates to more than your own personal existence. The strength of anarchy as a political philosophy imo is that it puts greater emphasis on 'relating the way' you want to than any other (I agree with you in that sense). If you don't believe that is a better way of relating for the 'world' generally why post ideas/opinions on a forum or state them anywhere? I suggest we do it because we're proposing it to others, hoping to influence to some degree, because otherwise, for example, people who believe in the State will visit their violence upon you unwittingly thinking they are working for the 'common good' etc. That's politics. We are subject to other people's dangerous delusions. I suggest attempting to correct them is in our own interest. Doing so with truly decentralized crypto is one potential way to do it because part of the problem is that the currency tool as fiat is, as you stated, "created, maintained, and monitored by the state" but most people see no way to extricate themselves from the fiat system that has them tied in on so many levels. However, it's not so hard to appreciate that it's difficult to be taxed when you work for and exchange untraceable cryptocurrency.
"i will take your money and your arms, and maybe your legs too!"
@dotnetspec: the problem i'm still having with your line of reasoning is that the entire basis for your discussion is a hypothetical anarchist capitalism. Nobody throughout the entire discussion was plotting to take away your ability to spend money and exchange resources, every single person on here participates in the capitalist system to a certain extent like you do, and realizes that living without the system now adays is either extremely difficult or impossible.
The system we participate in has implications and even though anarchists would not use force in our daily transactions except in certain circumstances, the system does use force and coercion.
That's extremely comical that your plan to make the world more anarchistic is to propagate crypto-currencies. How is anyone going to buy cryptocurrencies without getting a job and paying taxes into the statist system?!
"When was the last time you said 'no' to the State? See if you're still laughing when you try..."
let's see... every year when i do not pay taxes. with every wanky structure that i build in complete non-compliance with their rules and regulations. every time i grow medicine that they say i cannot. every time i take a shit in my outhouse that they say is illegal. every time i refuse to submit my canine friends to their absurd licensing and leash laws. ...
bwahahahahahaha!!!! still laughing....
but actually, i see all that much more as ignoring the state, than saying no to it. of course i cannot ignore the state in every situation. because i know i can't take the state head on, and i seriously doubt anything in my lifetime is going to do away with it, i do my best to minimize my interactions with it. instead i spend most of my energy creating my life in ways that continuously decrease my need to interact with it (and all its interdependent institutions). and when i do have to interact, i try my best to make it on my terms.
on another note, please tell me how exactly a non-technical person - especially a poor one - is supposed to use monero (or any crypto-currency) for the basic necessities of life (to the extent they need currency to meet their needs)? or do they get left out of your anti-state techo-capitalist world?
So far so good; and I'm pleased they haven't tried it on with you for whatever reason. Not so lucky for Ross Ulbricht and others they decide to make an example of (trouble is it works to keep most people in line).
You're laughing because you're refusing to accept their 'services' (which is understandable since you never asked for them). If you don't like any of the other 'security service providers' because they use a hierarchy, fine. I hope you don't mind if I choose to (don't worry I won't expect them to extort from everyone else on my behalf, or invade anyone)(if it really amuses you that I do choose to employ them ... ok, I'm pleased you're so amused).
Yup, most the time simply ignoring is the reality. When I have the energy and the opportunity presents itself I try to be more pro-active and say 'no' to their constant power grabs. Counter-economics is kind of ignoring the State and being pro-active, against it, at the same time, but that's a discussion for another thread.
On the crypto: Whatever potential it has there will be poor people trying to make the most of it, and the State interfering 'to protect them'. I tend to think back to the early days of the Internet. Did anyone 'need' it then? Most I spoke to didn't. Do they need it now? Most say yes, in one way or another. The mechanics might seem daunting currently to a non-techie, but it's just lack of familiarity. As it becomes more ubiquitous it's easy to imagine it becoming used for necessities as well as everything else. This writer sees developing countries 'leapfrogging' developed with the help of crypto. Maybe ... or not, but it's happening to a greater extent than some realize and these are still early days...
"Whatever potential it has there will be poor people trying to make the most of it, and the State interfering 'to protect them'."
So in other words, you are a ramen-noodle anarcho-marxist, one of those people who manufactures cheap stuff in order to phase out the state and end poverty?
dns: As it becomes more ubiquitous it's easy to imagine it becoming used for necessities as well as everything else. This writer sees developing countries 'leapfrogging' developed with the help of crypto. Maybe ... or not, but it's happening to a greater extent than some realize and these are still early days..."
Yep, and 'it' only takes a few eggs to make an omelette. Optimism: the carrot which always sounds so good until the tumors form...
i was talking about services the state provides that might occasionally be useful to me (and others), like food stamps, medicaid, or roads. my refusal to follow rules that don't make sense to me can surely be seen as an expression of anarchic thought, and years ago that was probably a huge motivating factor for me. these days, it is simply what makes sense in the context of creating my life - practicality.
i guess i have long since given up the idea of living "in revolt" for the sake of revolt. i contrast my own ignoring of state laws (which is of course far from complete) with the ideology of "illegalism". i don't do/not do shit just because it goes against the state. (well maybe once in a while, but that's more for shits and giggles....) i do it because it is what makes sense for my life.