psychedelic anarchy?

Question

have people here had their the concepts of anarchy influenced -to a greater or lesser degree- by psychedelic experiences, or other unusual experience?

personally these experiences have helped guide a lot of my metaphysical ideas, which are the foundation of my ideas of anarchy and the individual. -will go into more detail if prompted-

Comments

a few quick responses to syrph:

"Proper bookkeeping seems to me a more realistic and effective strategy than dropping out. "

more effective than dropping out of what? economic relations? 

"Call it the economic lens if you will, it distorts reality no more than any other lens at my disposal."

i hear that. any lens distorts in some way.

"Debt - just the feeling of owing someone something, especially when vague - can be exploited to control others. "

absolutely! viewed in that way, debt is a weakness to be exploited. wouldn't you want to remove that opportunity from anyone you relate with? discarding - or at least minimizing - value exchange as the basis for relationships might address that at some level, don't you think?

but wait... i don't want to try to convince you of anything. i've made it clear where i stand on the issue of value exchange relationships, and you have as well. i think we understand each other reasonably well on that - we have very different ideas and desires around it. cool. is there any reason to drag that particular discussion out further? is there anything new to be said?

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No, Funky, I guess there isn't anything new to be said here. These days I'm extremely confused about fairness/justice and by rephrasing and insisting here I must be trying to articulate the problem clearly. I know I'm going to have to let go of the desire for fairness now (and responsibility?), I'm just afraid of where that will lead. Probably another long period of anti-social behavior.  You, dot and Bornagain have already helped me plenty; I'll ask for no further guidance and we'll go talk about what you want to talk about. After all, I owe it to you ! ;)

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dot: I don't know what I think right now; I feel incoherent, fluid -- what more appropriate thread than psychadelic anarchy ! ;)

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syrphant: if you think there is more to get from the discussion, by all means carry on! i just don't want to start spinning on the "yay economics - boo economics" thing.

i definitely get trying to work through stuff by "talking" through it. so don't feel like i am trying to shut you down (as if i would or could). btw, i find you far less incoherent that the majority of folks i disagree with.

and regarding having to let go of fairness and responsibility - i'm not sure that is what i would suggest, per se. i guess i would simply question your definition of those terms, and what they mean to you. for me, the issue is attempting to somehow have an "objective" measure of them. if something feels fair (or unfair) to you, i think it absolutely makes sense to examine those feelings and where they come from. my personal aversion to terms like "fairness" and "justice" are based primarily on the fact that most people i come across use those terms in some (presumedly) objective way.

responsibility is something i take very seriously. in fact, it is having "responsibilities" thrust upon me that are not of my choosing that was one of the primary drivers for my anarchic (and individualistic) explorations. and particularly in light of (and contrary to) the overwhelming infection of political correctness and victimization ideology i see these days, personal/individual responsibility is something i value strongly. i find it far too frequent that individuals do not take responsibility for their own actions/behavior.

are we in the best thread for this discussion?

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funky@, there is no compartmentalizing a good conversation! SIGH!

syrphant, fwiw, i read funky@ as trying to avoid either sounding or feeling as if they're trying to get you to agree with them. the line between explaining ourselves and convincing someone else can be a wobbly one, for all concerned, which i find fascinating in itself.

Answer 1

psychedelics had a huge influence on my life in general, around the same time i started reading @ lit. While there are a lot of components and a lot of insights i gained i would say chief among them was ego loss/death. really helped me view everything as equal heirs to the earth, gave me a renewed meaning to my own personal life to cut through my nihilism, and thus a more positive view of the fact that all the stars burn out eventually, the breaking down of barriers between me and other beings (the interconnectedness) helped me care more about the struggles of others and solidarity, maybe some other stuff i cant put my finger on, but i would say it less directly influenced my anarchy and more just overall as a person, and thus indirectly relates to my concept of anarchy.

a better illustration: now. after LSD and others, when i see two cops shoving someone in a car, i dont see two cops and a criminal, i see two people attacking and abusing another (and their wellbeings all depend on eachother (the interconnectedness))

edit:optimistic nihilism from realizing how unimportant i am

changed that to: gave me a renewed meaning to my own personal life to cut through my nihilism, and thus a more positive view of the fact that all the stars burn out eventually,

Comments

wait, i don't understand. you say you gained ego death and insights from psychedelics. or did you mean you experienced ego death while on psychedelics? in ego death there is no you, yourself and u. nor any sense of self or awareness of your existence. to find meaning to your personal life during ego death is odd and doesn't make sense since there is no "i" or self to find meaning for yourself.. trying to find meaning for your personal self would imply you're aware, have a sense of self and your existence.  ego death isnt something you gain and it doesn't stick around for long time. ego death is hard to explain. im not sure what you meant by "gaining ego death"

what you're describing is more on par with stuff like lsd or ald-52 and a few other ones. to end up in ego death you'd likely have to take a lot.

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didn't say "gained ego death" and didn't describe the experience so negating it is weird. those who have experienced it disagree that one cant experience it, as "you" aren't there, as you don't experience it as you, you experience it as everything, or everythingyou and that's part of the point.

obviously something profound will be analyzed by most people, even if not at the moment, and likely have some effect on them as a person.

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and I did take alot

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oh im sorry, the wording of the 2nd and 3rd sentence in your answer was confusing to me. so the 2nd sentence meant there are a lot of components and insights you gained and one of the components & insights you gained would be ego death? or would it be the insight alone or component alone? thanks for clarifying.

your follow up sentence reads like you were still meaning ego death rather than whatever it was you were actually trying to convey. hence my comment.  George is glad you clarified and now knows you weren't meaning ego death in the 3rd sentence of your answer, but something else.

i've experienced ego death a few times off a combo of dmt and other fun stuff and discussed it with a few people that have experienced it. it's fairly difficult to explain to others.

"those who have experienced it disagree that one cant experience it, as "you" aren't there, as you don't experience it as you, you experience it as everything, or everything you and that's part of the point."

George doesn't know what you're meaning by that sentence.

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I was referring to ego death. a better way to word it would have been insights as a result of the experience of ego death.

Answer 2

Great question; excellent conversation topic.  I've never tried pscyhadelics. I have some pschological issues that produce wierd experiences for me without them; my "natural" trips are not always comfortable, so I never wanted to push my mind further in that direction. In high-school I hung out with kids who enjoyed acid; they actually asked for me to be there - sober - to help them trip. I just remember them mostly laying on the floor and me producing sounds and visual effects and deep thoughts. I felt no desire to join them on the floor; I kinda felt they were going to a lot of trouble to get where I tend to drift off to sometimes and go to trouble to get back from.  Now in my older age I'd like to experiment with LSD but I wouldn't even know how to go about finding a dealer.

I reckon anyone who thinks deep is going to end up anarchist. I reckon anyone with a particularly heightened empathy for others and particularly intense awareness of things like time and change are going to end up thinking deep.  If psychadelics can dissolve the man-made reality we take for granted and reveal the truer, greater complexity, I'm sure they'll lead many people to anarchist thought.

Comments

i wish i still had glasses as deeply rose-colored as yours, syrphant. and i wish i had some pure liquid to send you!

"I reckon anyone who thinks deep is going to end up anarchist. "

if only...

i also think that idea implies a sort of patronizing attitude shared by so many folks with strong ideas about how the world "should" be. as i mentioned above, my own psychedelic experiences opened doors in my mind that could never be closed again. yet all of my living experiences through 57+ years also play into the complex soup that is my mind, hopefully preventing me from allowing any one element of my experiences to color all of my "reality".

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Look, if I sound patronizing maybe I'm trying to convince myself, 'cause in all honesty I'm the most confused, insecure member of this group. As you often remind me. Don't rub your moral.and intellectual superiority in my face; it's patronizing ;)

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lol!

fuck superiority! i have no morals, and my intellect is constantly in question (primarily - though definitely not exclusively - by me).

however, i AM always right. (or is it left...?)

Answer 3

I have pretty limited experience with psychedelics, and I don't know if said use influenced my concept of anarchy, but it influenced me and who I am as an anarchist.

My first acid trip involved hallucinations of everything falling apart and the ruins roiling like a mass of snakes, as well as a sense that it was inevitable. This cracking open of something that had been spinning in my head, but that I couldn't reconcile with my understanding of the world didn't make me an anarchist, but it definitely had to do with my anti-civ awakenings, which is pretty integral to my anarchy, but predated my using the a-word.

The next day in PE class we played volleyball. Volleyball is not a sport to play while coming down and still seeing tracers.

Comments

interesting first trip.

in my late teens, i often played handball and paddleball while tripping. i don't recall ever losing in those cases, as the ball always moved in slow motion, making it super easy for me to get the shots i wanted, put all kinds of english on the ball, anticipate where it was going, etc. basketball (the sport i loved most and most often played), on the other hand, i could never really get it going. the ball always seemed to weigh like 50 pounds.