Would co opting the state for antifa have any undesirable consequences IYO?

Question

I'm getting involved in a neo nazi party for the purpose of infiltration/sabotage/vandalism. Right now ideas I have would be to climb their ranks (they have military ranks) and gain access to member lists closed door meetings and information to expose less public radical right views and any mainstream politicians who might be rubbing shoulders with them, and just fucking shit up when it wouldn't compromise my safety or a more important goal. The thing I had a question about, is if I caught wind of illegal direct action occurring to further their goals, what would be the pros and cons of reporting it or gathering evidence to report to the police? It could potentially use the state for my/(our?) own interests. Also I would like to hear from someone involved or with experience with anti fascist action (not necessarily the group), for ideas, what I could do to prepare, and whether this is a big waste of time.

Edited to add:
Big waste of time-- not being able to outweigh any potential positive participation needed or the ten dollars a month I will be giving them.

Would like to hear from-- but all answers welcome and appreciated not just Afa folks

Comments

when i think about what someone would probably have to do to climb the ranks of a neo-nazi group, almost all of it seems undesirable.

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To be completely honest I have little idea of what I'm getting into. Much more research is needed and what you said will be considered every step of the way so that at any point I can quit with what I got and do some damage with it. They are a registered political party and not like a gang as far as I can tell so far though. Thanks for the input.

Edit: I'm sure it could do some good even at a low standing I could find out where a meeting or rally is and disrupt it. I got the idea from an experience which involved joining a white supremacist email list just to find out where a meeting was which was then completely shutdown by @s and liberals together. According to the story they are weary about publicly announcing where gatherings are to "keep the lefties out".

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like bornagain said, climbing the ranks of any group will necessarily compromise you as a person, in various different ways. Sounds like a horrible idea

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hey Donnie, best of luck to you...you've got some guts to take something like this on. i'd like to hear whatever stories you'd like to share about your experience...take care.

Answer 1

using the state for "our" purposes makes the state stronger.

it keeps us from developing our own strength, the mere fact that it did something is used by the state to grow itself, and whatever solutions the state comes up (cameras on cops, for example) feed the state, not us.



so yes, undesirable consequences.

edit to say: be careful. infiltration can have long lasting emotional consequences. be sure you get emotional support from people you trust.

Comments

Could you suggest any literature to me that may help me prepare? I'll research undercover agents and potential mental effects but anything you could throw at me could help just in general about infiltration and and what to expect from the neo nazi movement. I'm googling too ofcourse but I remember you mentioning doing ARA work for years so I thought I'd ask. Thanks a lot for answering.

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nope, no resources. my info on infiltration came from a friend in a different (not nazi) group.

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Thanks anyways

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This. also, be incredibly fucking careful. which means don't post here or anywhere else about it, and make sure what posts you have made in the past can't come back to you.

I honestly can't see where the pay off from infiltration and rising through the ranks is worth the compromise and risk to your physical and emotional well-being.

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"using the state for 'our' purposes makes the state stronger. "

I mostly agree with this, but... but - well there's something naggin' at the back of me skull to tell me this is too simple to hold alone.
If we use the state as it intends itself to be 'used'/interacted_with (for example, calling the cops to rat out the naughty fascistas), then it definitely (in our minds) reinforces its strength and accentuates our weakness.
If, to the contrary, we were clever enough to find a way to pit against each other the multitude of factions that comprise the 'monolithic' State, let the state's gears grind against themselves for a change.  For example, spot of a couple of city cops hanging with the fascistas (there's always a couple), then blackmail the mayor's office to deal with them - 'a copy of this file will be sent to every media outlet in three days, etc'.  So, the cops are pissed at their brass and the mayor, the brass are pissed at being pushed by the mayor's office and at the dumb cops for embarassing them, and the fascists are pissed at everybody.  It never really works like this in real life; but i think the idea has some merit - if there's a dozen thugs fighting to get through a single door to beat the shit out of me, then i should be able to instigate at least a single squabble amongst them and get the hell outta the road.

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DonnieDarko:  i vaguely recall seeing a book review last year, it was about a girl that had been in a neo-nazi group in ontario or alberta (dinna remember which or both), when she started having a crisis of conscience about the shit they were doing then the cops turned her and used her as an informant.  After the cops had a go at the skinheads, they turned her loose to fend for herself.  I think after looking over her shoulder for a decade or more, the book was her 'Fuck You All' to the whole rotten works o' them.
Unfortunately, i can't remember her name, or the name of the book, or even which site i saw the review on (ak press?).  Sorry i can't give you more.

[edit::  finally remembered enough to do a proper search - it was
"Race Traitor"  by Elisa Hategan;  she was hanging around the Heritage Front - a neo-nazi group that turned out to be founded and financed by the canadian federal spy agency...
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Traitor-Canadian-Intelligences-Greatest/dp/1502779714/
]

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That's okay that you don't remember. That's pretty much what I was thinking about, documenting and exposing some local politicians or sheriffs at best hanging around these people. I wouldn't have to climb deep into it for that. And Ya I can't believe I didn't think of the dangers of ratting them out. It would also give the cops experience in how to deal with direct action and and an opportunity to show the public the "dangers of fringe political groups". I'm still talking to the guy it looks like I'm gonna do it. Wish me luck.

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Shit.
You've got more guts than me.  Between you and me lad, i have my doubts about this; but if your heart is set on it, then you'll follow it.  Watch your back with these bastards, the head men are all spit and shine, but they attract vicious little bastards as hirelings and those vicious little bastards hold a grudge.  (O' course, at one time, we held our own grudges - and buried them in shallow graves; pity we got polite somewhere in the last century.)

I wonder if these bastards are as blind to the working man as the rest of the 'noble' classes - the man who sweeps the floor and unplugs the toilet just fades into the background...

Good luck lad.  (and listen to your instincts - despite the fucking shit civilisation has heaped upon our forebrains, we are still clever cunning creatures in the hind.)