dd: you may indeed, i just might need a bit more prompting. not sure what kind of details you are looking for? around my acid experiences? around how those experiences contributed to my perspective now?
one anecdote that may or may not be relevant:
there were a lot - i mean a lot - of homeless folks in my neighborhood back then. one day i was tripping, walking towards the subway station. i saw a homeless guy sitting on the sidewalk up against a building. i just happened to catch his eye. we shared a glance for probably no more than a second (of course it seemed like hours to me); after which i was never the same person again. i felt a connection with that individual that was somehow deeper than any connection i had ever felt with anyone up to that point. the fact that he was homeless was completely irrelevant (at least consciously); i simply saw him as another individual, living an unhappy life. and it was the fact that his life seemed unhappy that struck me so hard. i didn't have any analysis about why he was unhappy; the mere fact that he was unhappy troubled me so viscerally that i cried for what seemed like hours. i always had a certain amount of empathy for others, but this was on a whole different level.instead of getting on the subway, i walked over to central park to cry in solitude. i sat down by a big old tree, leaning back against it. i cried for a bit, and slowly started to become aware of the green beauty around me. i relaxed and let myself drift. at some point, i felt as if my body had merged with the tree, literally. i felt like part of the tree, but still conscious of myself as well. it felt so incredibly ... what's the word... fulfilling? relaxing? comfortable? at peace? it was the first time in my life that i felt a real connection to the "natural" world (since my world consisted of concrete and subways). it was rather profound.i guess those experiences speak to the "connectedness" i referred to, while still not losing my individuality as part of it. but again, not sure how it relates to anarchic thought.
fairness and justice were nowhere near my awareness while tripping. those are socio-political-legal concepts, and my psychedelic experiences were anything but. feeling connection and empathy with other beings was almost omnipresent, but fairness and justice... not even remotely present. maybe that is an indicator of my anti-political, anti-economic perspective.
if i had ever felt anything along those lines, i am fairly certain it would have been stronger, since the majority of my trips (i have tripped several hundred times in my life, mostly before i was 30) were when i was still a progressive lefty.
fairness seems to be - or at least can be - related to subjective "value", though not material value. if i say "i value friendship", that is not a material value, at least not in any way i can fathom. it can't be used for exchange, eg. well, i guess maybe in your strictly economic world it could, i just don't know how.
if we were having beers together, me buying you a round would have nothing to do with "fairness". it would have to do with me getting pleasure from giving you something that you enjoy. if i had bought the first round, would you offer to buy the second solely because you saw it as "fair"? your desire to give me something that makes me happy isn't enough (or is it a factor at all)?it has no relation to economics or exchange value, for me.but you are a horrible father and a myopic greedy fuck! :-)
syrphant: "If I were to have a beer with Funky it might end badly: I would buy the first round, then Funky, rejecting the very concept of accounting, would feel nothing when I buy the second round, and the third. He'd say thanks, probably, but I'd say, "hey man, this isn't fair."
why would you keep buying rounds if it bothered you?
and why does someone rejecting accounting mean they would feel nothing?
i'd say even calling the beer buying a "round" implies you've started accounting...why not just call it a beer.
i often bring homemade cannabis edibles to small gatherings of friends....i never feel like they "owe" me something in return....i get a lot of pleasure simply by seeing their enjoyment of the snacks...
concepts of "fairness" and "justice" hold no appeal for me....but i sometimes still need to shake those concepts implanted in my brain from years of conditioning through hierarchical institutions and other authority figures in my life.
syrphant" "just you are the only people that are occasionally interested enough in my brain-excretions to make counter statements or recommend I go read something."
i appreciate that syrphant...i often feel the same way when writing my thoughts here....which i just realized i've done for four years now.....leading me to again feel grateful for this "place".... :)
Thanks for the interesting, enjoyable stimulation. @dot: you are right that "assuming other people agree with your assumptions is highly dangerous." That's certainly my experience, which leads me to bornagain's question "why does someone rejecting accounting mean they would feel nothing?" and shinmin's statement "there being no objective answer to questions of 'best pizza' doesnt stop you from making judgements as to what kind of pizzas you like best."
The pizza judgement implies a certain ideal where objectives are attained (in consideration of priorities and perceived constraints, which are as much subject to debate as the objectives). The value judgements of good, bad, best, sucky, should and shouldn't and words with well-understood connotation are, in reality, measures of how well or how effectively the thing or action paddles the canoe towards the isle of eden. Even if, when making the judgements, you aren't aware of your prioritized objectives you nonetheless reveal them. Sorry to burst bubbles, but that's morality. It is relative ethics to the extent we recognize ideals, objectives and priorities as entirely personal; if any of these are assumed to be shared we venture into absolute ethics in a community of some size.
Then... wait, I have to go. I'll be right back !
syrphant: "Sorry to burst bubbles, but that's morality."
you may call one's preferences for a pizza "morality", but i don't. no bubble burst here.
i don't want to label what i like as "morality" or "relative ethics" or any other name. i'd rather just describe what i like and why i like it.
syrphant, the scenario you described highlights precisely why i choose not to see the world through the economic lens of exchange value. as ba@ mentioned, you clearly had expectations, even if you did not initially acknowledge them. those kinds of expectations are imo absolutely unavoidable when your life is defined by economics and exchange value.
you willingly accept and embrace that economic perspective on life; the results are fairly predictable. if the outcomes make you feel shitty, maybe it's time to rethink that perspective. unless you like feeling shitty.
edit: "mutually agreed values that everyone keeps track of"
that right there is an unrealistic expectation, to me. individual values change, and keeping track of them seems like just more bookkeeping of individual desires - something i think is not possible. simply acknowledging the dynamic nature of individuals and relationships - along with good, direct communication - seems like the only way to avoid such disappointments and "pain". trying to shoehorn that into some abstract bookkeeping system is of no interest to me whatsoever.
Best we all be squared-up, so nobody can possibly feel cheated or guilty. Then everyone is free.
oh dear. no no no no...
a. people can always feel cheated and guilty. always. you can't base things on what other people think/feel.
b. freedom doesn't come from that lack! that's already the direction this culture pushes us - that the atomized are free. you don't really think that?
a few quick responses to syrph:
"Proper bookkeeping seems to me a more realistic and effective strategy than dropping out. "
more effective than dropping out of what? economic relations?
"Call it the economic lens if you will, it distorts reality no more than any other lens at my disposal."
i hear that. any lens distorts in some way.
"Debt - just the feeling of owing someone something, especially when vague - can be exploited to control others. "
absolutely! viewed in that way, debt is a weakness to be exploited. wouldn't you want to remove that opportunity from anyone you relate with? discarding - or at least minimizing - value exchange as the basis for relationships might address that at some level, don't you think?
but wait... i don't want to try to convince you of anything. i've made it clear where i stand on the issue of value exchange relationships, and you have as well. i think we understand each other reasonably well on that - we have very different ideas and desires around it. cool. is there any reason to drag that particular discussion out further? is there anything new to be said?
psychedelics had a huge influence on my life in general, around the same time i started reading @ lit. While there are a lot of components and a lot of insights i gained i would say chief among them was ego loss/death. really helped me view everything as equal heirs to the earth, gave me a renewed meaning to my own personal life to cut through my nihilism, and thus a more positive view of the fact that all the stars burn out eventually, the breaking down of barriers between me and other beings (the interconnectedness) helped me care more about the struggles of others and solidarity, maybe some other stuff i cant put my finger on, but i would say it less directly influenced my anarchy and more just overall as a person, and thus indirectly relates to my concept of anarchy.a better illustration: now. after LSD and others, when i see two cops shoving someone in a car, i dont see two cops and a criminal, i see two people attacking and abusing another (and their wellbeings all depend on eachother (the interconnectedness))
edit:optimistic nihilism from realizing how unimportant i am
changed that to: gave me a renewed meaning to my own personal life to cut through my nihilism, and thus a more positive view of the fact that all the stars burn out eventually,
i wish i still had glasses as deeply rose-colored as yours, syrphant. and i wish i had some pure liquid to send you!"I reckon anyone who thinks deep is going to end up anarchist. "if only...i also think that idea implies a sort of patronizing attitude shared by so many folks with strong ideas about how the world "should" be. as i mentioned above, my own psychedelic experiences opened doors in my mind that could never be closed again. yet all of my living experiences through 57+ years also play into the complex soup that is my mind, hopefully preventing me from allowing any one element of my experiences to color all of my "reality".