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+4 votes
I'm asking about this because how people react to the coronavirus pandemic is really controversial right now, there's lots of morality, misinformation, confusion, etc.

People in the U.S. and even Germany are gathering in the streets to protest the lockdown directly (in the U.S. a lot of people tie it to "the trumpees") and there's also the concurrent labor oriented protests, rent strikes, etc.

I personally don't want to be a part of any of this activism at the moment, yet I sympathize both with the people who want the lockdown to end, and those who don't think it's a good idea to go back to work, using this as an opportunity to counteract the things that rich folks and property owners want from society. I feel the most generous thing I can do at the moment is shrug and admit I don't really know what the right way to respond to this crisis is.
by (2.1k points)
i missed this in in the queue, so it's been waiting for a month or so.
"...shrug and admit I don't really know what the right way to respond to this crisis is."

i hear that loud and clear.

the (false?) dichotomy between "health" and "economy" seems to have become the political linchpin of the moment (wrt the covid pandemic). anyone that claims to know the "right" way to respond is almost certainly on one side or the other of that dichotomy.

is a "mask mandate" considered a "lockdown"? i guess i mean this: in protesting "lockdowns", is the issue:

- the principle of being told what to do (general rejection of authority)

- the specific activity/ies being constrained (assuming overreaction to the risks)

- both

- neither

- other possibilities...?
the question of protests in general is one that many anarchists i know struggle with, as it usually ends up as no more than a symbolic gesture. a few blm murals, etc.

as to the lockdowns, i completely understand opposition to them. in many ways, they are completely authoritarian and economically counter productive. while i live largely on the outskirts of mass society, it is undeniable that urban concentration of humans creates problems for "society" as a whole (it also creates some benefits). when many people - for whatever reasons - ignore suggestions related to health and cause wide spreading of the virus in population centers, it is understandable in the context of mass society (which i despise and consider a root cause of authoritarianism in many of its forms) to impose restrictions that "protect" the most people. that is at least theoretically the very purpose of the government/authorities (ha!). the fact that such restrictions inherently impact the economy is obvious. the strategic question would seem to be: is it "better" to hurt the economy in the short term for assumed long term health, or let the virus run its "natural" course, take the health hit now in hopes of herd immunity and/or scientific control (vaccines etc). leaving aside any death rates, letting the virus run rampant will (and has) cause huge numbers of sickness and hospitalizations, which impact both the economy (many people can't work or be a customer even if businesses can be open) and the health care system (overwhelmed in dealing with the virus, limiting access to care for other health issues that normally would not result in death but do so due to lack of health care resources).

imo, folks that don't follow the simple guidelines that seem to make sense to most people (avoid crowds, distance, wear a mask, wash your hands) should be denied health care when they catch it.

and if folks want to protest lockdowns, go for it! just don't complain to me when nothing changes as a result.
@fa: i overall am not supportive of the state controlling people, because it always seems to have so many other consequences, and as i saw people talking with edward snowden on the internet, states around the world are using the pandemic to "build the architecture of oppression", this is not really happening in the U.S. though, as there's a huge portion of population that has a very reactionary take on caution and control ("people who wear masks are pussies" for example)

"imo, folks that don't follow the simple guidelines that seem to make sense to most people (avoid crowds, distance, wear a mask, wash your hands) should be denied health care when they catch it."

that's a pretty bold statement! I see what you mean, i personally would go even further and say that medical systems do more harm more than good overall, keeping miserable people alive, giving people pain killers so they get addicted, doctors overall being snobby/ignorant specialists, the list goes on in terms of the harm the medical system does to the human race and the planet.

IMO, Overall i think we should all be careful in making judgements about what certain should/shouldn't be done from a bureaucratic perspective, and that's overall what bothers me about talking to dems and repubs. For example, directing a comment at what you said, if someone shows up at an ER and has medicaid (this is kind of an interesting question to me because i have medicaid), how would they even know whether they "should be denied coverage"? Band t-shirt they bought at a concert? Overall the evidence based court system has taught me a lot about the general issue of control, especially when it reaches out of your very tiny sphere of influence...

nihilist: "IMO, Overall i think we should all be careful in making judgements about what certain should/shouldn't be done from a bureaucratic perspective, and that's overall what bothers me about talking to dems and repubs"

my sentiments exactly. i would only quibble with the "we should" portion of your statement...in that i only know i don't want to think in terms of what authority should/shouldn't do - i desire their absence, not them doing the "right" thing. when i catch myself thinking like that, i remind myself of how i've been conditioned to think what people "in authority" should/shouldn't do...and to think more of what i would do in a given situation while i observe with interest what happens within all the various organizations...

nihilist: just to be clear, i wasn't saying that those people should somehow be denied health care based on policy of authorities. that was just a personal desire.

also, of course i don't support the health care system, the government, or any institution of authority and oppression. i make certain observations based on the actual world as it is, as compared to the world i wish i lived in. there is a state, there is mass society, there is a massive and complex economic system, etc. i do my best to keep them all out of my life (including the health care system), but at times i cannot avoid them. many (if not most) people in the u.s., including some i care deeply about, do not share my perspective. once in a while i engage with them in conversations, and they know very well where i stand. telling them to just avoid the government, the economy, doctors and hospitals, etc, is not a useful talking point. so i find myself trying to consider their context in those discussions, and use their own complaints about "the system" to bring up alternative perspectives.

plus i find the left and right to be so pathetically absurd, especially at this point in time, i can always find humor in mocking both.

the bottom line for me is: do what the fuck you want, and know that there are consequences. that applies to protesting, mask wearing, and basically everything. i can only understand (somewhat) potential consequences if i have a decent understanding of the context in which i am acting.

funky: "people in the u.s., including some i care deeply about, do not share my perspective. once in a while i engage with them in conversations, and they know very well where i stand. telling them to just avoid the government, the economy, doctors and hospitals, etc, is not a useful talking point. so i find myself trying to consider their context in those discussions, and use their own complaints about "the system" to bring up alternative perspectives."

well said. i have difficulty with this sort of thing all the time...and have tried similar approaches...without much satisfaction most of the time i must admit....i'm glad that we have each other here on this site where we can speak in different ways about the same "problems"...
 

ba@: i can't say i get much satisfaction from those discussions either. :-)

"my sentiments exactly. i would only quibble with the "we should" portion of your statement...in that i only know i don't want to think in terms of what authority should/shouldn't do - i desire their absence, not them doing the "right" thing. when i catch myself thinking like that, i remind myself of how i've been conditioned to think what people "in authority" should/shouldn't do...and to think more of what i would do in a given situation while i observe with interest what happens within all the various organizations..."

I agree that "should" is a problematic word, because it's essentially a human/authoritarian projection of imagination. However, the only way i can really change what said is to say something like "i try not to" or "it's better not to", which basically accomplishes the same thing. I guess could help me think of a better way to critique funky's political opinion so that i can get better at this stuff in real life ;-)

nihilist: "I guess could help me think of a better way to critique funky's political opinion so that i can get better at this stuff in real life "

what "political opinion" of mine are you looking to critique? i wonder if i have been unclear about my perspective. do you think i support government mandates for anything? or government in any way?

1 Answer

–1 vote
In the beginning of the "pandemics" I believed that there was real danger. But then I started analyzing the health data, making my own statistics, crossing them with what the media say, studied the subjects and so I concluded, among other things, the following:

1) the virus is quite harmless, causing fewer victims than the flu;
2) a substantial part of the excess mortality is not explained by covid19 - the lockdowns caused more victims than the virus;
3) the media and politicians of our so-called democratic societies are blatantly lying and actively seeking to terrorize populations.

I imagine people who protest may have reached the same conclusions. I have not yet participated in any protest because these are not taking place where I live, but I will carry out civil resistance actions if they want to force me to wear a mask on the street.
by (520 points)
but if that's the truth, then the cops might be afraid of you!

;-)

Geez Louise!  Some of whatever's responses remind me of the way flat earthers and other zany conspiracy theorists respond when people query their thoughts.

  1. Point out the media and governments lies quite often. Make it clear that some of these states are even authoritarian dictatorships. This is an attempt to make other people more susceptible into believing their "theory."*
  2. Claim only their sources are reliable with no explanation whatsoever.
  3. When an article is posted that doesn't adhere to their narrative. They respond by dismissing it as a bourgeoisie newspaper or fake news.
  4. Since the media lies often then that means everything else the media/newspapers publishes are just all lies. Well, unless the media/newspapers publishes something that adheres to the conspiracy theorist's narrative.
  5. Just claim the person is so naive and/or dumb that the person believes the "official narrative" without explaining how the conspiracy theorist came to that conclusion.
  6. Make a vague statement about the state taking our freedoms.
  7. Tell people to do their own research without pointing them in any helpful direction.
  8. Rinse and repeat


It would've been nice if whatever's comments were more substantial instead of repeating things over and over. I should know because I'm someone that's in the top percentile of writing repetitive text-walls that don't really say much of anything. TIL a new term "bourgeoisie newspaper."

I imagine the number of people with the rona will go up since a lot of states are making it easier to get tested for it and with that the rate of mortality will decline.

let's face it, there is another illness running rampant, and some folks are more at risk than others.

it's called the morona virus.
i'm very curious about what Whatever's thoughts are about covid now. any change? no change?

... wonder wonder wonder...
i second that wondering, dot.
...